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The Associated Worlds
archived / technicalities
For digging deep into minutiae.
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Are balloons viable combat shells?
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Examine your assumption
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Amorphs are going to be kinda squishy
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Morgrim Moon 05/23/2019 4:03 AM
Under the vast majority of combat situations, if they can get close enough to squish you you've lost. Game over. For the rare situations it's not, that's what military grade power armour exists for
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Then how come not everyone is a blob?
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Morgrim Moon 05/23/2019 4:03 AM
Why haven't you covered your body in piercings and tattoos?
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Because it would be painful?
04:04
They are not augments
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Morgrim Moon 05/23/2019 4:04 AM
If you wants to be a blob in the Imperium you can be a blob.
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But physics-wise, why not?
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Morgrim Moon 05/23/2019 4:05 AM
There's no penalty to it. Just as there is no penalty to being a biped. Or a giant wolf. Or a dinosaur
04:07
Body shapes are a mixture of personal preference and task suitability. There's a canonical character who is an eldrae at home and a mechasquid at work. And that's not considered odd
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A blob at home, a cybernetic eagle at mercenary work?
04:09
So, there is no "ultimate form"?
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Morgrim Moon 05/23/2019 4:27 AM
Of course not.
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BizarroLand ♀ 05/23/2019 4:28 AM
@Unknown there are still fundamental material limits as to how much bullet a certain amount of armor is going to protect against
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[bionics] Enh, the most likely limiting factors are probably energy consumption and thermal management. But I cannot help but think that spending too much time and effort accounting for this sort of thing -and, to a certain extent, excessive concern for balance in general - rather goes against the awesome-people-being-awesome genre. (edited)
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17:59
So I say let people turn themselves into walking tanks if they want to. The "balance" for that is that you're weirdly overspecialized, have probably traded away enough abilities (like most of your sense of touch) that your life isn't actually that enjoyable any more, and made the world stereotype you as "unsubtle, unimaginative thug who shouldn't be invited to any of the good parties".
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On the other hand they guy with a walking tank shell that he is comfortable in probably gets invited to all the best parties (edited)
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(Also, to really reflect the genre, INT, WIS, and cycles-per-second-accessible are your killer stats. Mister walking-tank-guy should therefore expect to be pwned hard by someone who spent more money on processor time and less on looking badass to people who've watched too many bad movies.)
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What about cybernetic soldiers?
18:02
solider cyborgs
18:02
with two arms
18:03
and weird looking tactical helmets
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for "best parties" measured in "quantity of live fire discharged during said party"
18:03
@Unknown when everyone is cybernetic the term ceases to have much meaning
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Oh, you don't want a party, you want a par-tay.
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I mean't to say: Really cybernetic sophont soldier mercs (edited)
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it isn't a party until someone starts using the empty kegs for improv targets
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Of which there are none.
18:45
There's a reason I talk about nanocyborgs. That's because there is basically nothing that your stereotypical cyberpunk chromeboy can do that can't be done better by (a) a drone, or (b) a suit. And the latter has the distinct advantage that you can take it off .
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Ghost in the Shell kind of covered the "artificial limbs are stronger" myth in the manga.
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There's probably still some merit in internal macro-implants, for special forces if nothing else.
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that is called a custom shell
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Still, "after-market" mods might be more cost-effective in some situations.
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@Overmind I beg to differ
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0111narwhalz 05/24/2019 2:41 AM
I feel like you'd need to rework the standard mental stats for a world where everyone is deeply linked to the weave by default.
02:42
Something more like FLOPS, bandwidth, and latency, maybe?
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MarcusAurelius 05/24/2019 4:13 AM
Sure Tron, but why not instead of implants in your main body, why not just build a purpose-built shell you wear to work and don't care how it looks in a tailcoat, and keep your flashy flamboyant and dashing party shell tucked away in a nice cozy nutrient bath at home?
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How do you even switch bodies without "dying"?
05:34
Do you come out the other side, with a memory of the previous action, or do you die and get replaced by an exact copy of your mind-state? (edited)
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Morgrim Moon 05/24/2019 5:44 AM
Memory of previous action
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How the hell does that even work?
05:52
Aren't you dead?
05:52
is some quantum magic at work?
05:54
does your mind get sucked out of your brain?
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0111narwhalz 05/24/2019 5:55 AM
I smell the blood of a continuity theorist.
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(insert vampire quote here)
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0111narwhalz 05/24/2019 5:56 AM
The Empire—and most of the Worlds—subscribe to pattern theory.
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So if I initiate mindcast, I die?
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0111narwhalz 05/24/2019 5:57 AM
Your question of "do you come out the other side […] or get replaced by an exact copy" is a null question in pattern theory.
05:58
Because an exact copy, by merit of being indistinguishable from you, is you.
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are you dead?
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0111narwhalz 05/24/2019 5:59 AM
Maybe—that depends on whether it was a destructive read.
05:59
But you're also alive.
05:59
(hopefully, anyway)
06:00
Mindcasting is a specialized form of forking, after all.
06:01
When you fork in the general case, you're making a copy.
06:02
When you mindcast, you probably suspend execution on the original, with the intent of overwriting it later.
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Morgrim Moon 05/24/2019 6:02 AM
the way I understand it, you're moving the "me" file from one folder to another. Whether that is a transfer or a copy depends on the underlying infrastructure of those particular folders. But the file is the same file either way.
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0111narwhalz 05/24/2019 6:03 AM
Or you wipe the drive for the next guy who needs the shell, if it's a rental.
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So your mind can't just get sucked out?
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Morgrim Moon 05/24/2019 6:03 AM
...what exactly do you think a mind is?
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0111narwhalz 05/24/2019 6:03 AM
Your mind could be read, maybe.
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MarcusAurelius 05/24/2019 6:03 AM
...I'm increasingly wondering if you've read any of the blog posts
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Open Word. Type “the quick brown fox” Save the file. Close Word. Open a new copy of Word. Load the file. Append “jumps over the lazy dog”. That’s how it works.
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0111narwhalz 05/24/2019 6:04 AM
But the mind isn't a glob of goo to be sucked out and chucked about.
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MarcusAurelius 05/24/2019 6:04 AM
well, in this case there's some Email or Google Drive nonsense, but same idea
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0111narwhalz 05/24/2019 6:04 AM
It's data to be copied.
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MarcusAurelius 05/24/2019 6:04 AM
the brain is hardware, the mind (in verse, at least) is software
06:05
(actual comp sci people, feel free to whack me over the head for the analogy, but it works from a layman's point of view)
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0111narwhalz 05/24/2019 6:05 AM
(I imagine the 'verse has some quite sophisticated VCS to do the grunt work of merging branched mindstates)
06:06
(possibly involving that lifelog thing we see every now and then)
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Have you got any short stories on a character mindcasting? (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 05/24/2019 6:06 AM
!ref tag mindcast
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Articles relating to mindcast can be found here: https://eldraeverse.com/tag/mindcast/
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MarcusAurelius 05/24/2019 6:07 AM
well, the tag doesn't work
06:07
try, I dunno, actually looking? It's mentioned in quite a few, I'm not sure how many directly depict it
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Morgrim Moon 05/24/2019 6:07 AM
(unrelated: "sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow" is so much cooler than "the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog". As well as more succinct.)
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0111narwhalz 05/24/2019 6:07 AM
!ref tag mindcasting
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Articles relating to mindcasting can be found here: https://eldraeverse.com/tag/mindcasting/
Posts about mindcasting written by Alistair Young
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Morgrim Moon 05/24/2019 6:08 AM
the "Into Darkness" series describes some of it nicely, including deciding to make a sacrificial fork where the fork knows and is okay with this
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As do the Takeshi Kovacs novels, on which the Netflix series Altered Carbon is very loosely based.
07:21
Also keep in mind that most "modern" eldrae are born with nanocircuitry for brains.
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@MarcusAurelius while somewhat true, I'm not personally convinced that the brain doesn't have a lot of the human coding wired in the hard way. Like, perhaps uploads using robot bodies discover they can emit sound but have to think about words more, and realize that they can't remember how to throw a baseball correctly.
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0111narwhalz 05/24/2019 8:27 PM
I imagine that's an abstraction layer or something.
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MarcusAurelius 05/24/2019 9:50 PM
Well yeah, but as @Overmind has described, early uploads will probably have to run more as an emulator of a human brain until we can figure out how to port them to a more universal format
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@o11o1 Bear in mind that the distinction between hardware and software isn't nearly as clear-cut as it might seem. Look at things like FPGAs, for example, or processor microcode. Or, going the other way around, that neural networks can be implemented in software.
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23:59
The software of the brain is stored in the configuration of its hardware, but that's no more than saying that it's a curious architecture in which the "CPU" and the "hard drive" happen to be the same component.
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that's my exact point, some of the original computers had their programming as knots of conductive wire, the program literally part of the actual hardware
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Yeah, and most of the brain's "programming" is likely to be of that sort since it's reflected by physical changes, but that doesn't mean you can't upload it.
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:04 AM
It'd be kinda interesting to read about an upload's struggles with limb drivers.
00:04
"it mostly works, except the joint position sensors report backwards"
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Morgrim Moon 05/25/2019 12:05 AM
Humans would adapt to that in about 2 weeks, based on other sensory scrambling
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except you're an emulation of a human at that point
00:06
does the adaptation proces -also- need an up to date driver?
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:06 AM
Maybe the motor/sensor abstraction layers would be able to handle that kind of thing, maybe your actual mind would have to get involved.
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I mean, to draw an analogy, I can put a circuit on one of my breadboards to, I don't know, some sort of 555-timer flashy-thing circuit. That's your physical brain, in which all the logic is in hardware. Then I can copy that circuit layout into my fancy-schmancy electronic-circuit simulator, hit "run", and get a flashy-thing. That's the original uploading process, a "mind emulation". Then I can look at what that does and write a C# class that does the exact same thing the circuit does to produce the identical output, while being much more optimized in its use of processor power. That's your modern compiled mind-state.
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Like, at a hyper advanced level like the eldrae have, the answer is just "they solved it" and we're supposedly prohibited from discussing it further there. I feel it's more interesting to consider the transition period when uploads aren't perfect, but just acceptably working. (edited)
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:08 AM
"works on my shell"
00:09
I guess the Imperial society is probably less prone to the open source/proprietary driver dichotomy than ours.
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I mean, you're not wrong in the main point - there are adaptation periods, and "driver"-type mindpatches to make adaptation easier. and a whole bunch of novel dysmorphia syndromes, not to mention the infamous zero-day flu that comes up every time a service pack comes out.
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or vision drivers that get confused by a plaid pattern and a blivet appearing in the same scene, but can view them seperately just fine. (who wants to go track down that bug report?)
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:11 AM
(that is to say, the hardware manufacturer distributes a binary blob that works excellently, but has little configuration, while leaving the open source crowd to hack together something that technically works, and might even have all the features, but is less efficient)
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But it's not an implemented-in-hardware thing, is all I'm sayin'. That's been a solved problem for a long time here and now.
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solved in the sense that people grumble about patch tuesdays but still live with it
00:12
actually
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Heh. Super example: Minecraft.
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what is your definition of "solved problem" ?
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In which people are building software encoded in hardware inside software running on hardware powered by software on hardware.
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:13 AM
yes, what he said
00:13
all of those things, yes
00:14
(I think you accounted for the JVM there?)
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In this particular case, something that can be done purely mechanistically. We already have software into which you can feed an algorithm description and which will spit out an FPGA hardware design to implement it, or into which you can feed a digital circuit design and which will output the equivalent algorithm.
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:16 AM
Also we have alternative media in which to model neural networks.
00:16
You could make meat do it, or emulate it in software… or use stacked diffraction gratings.
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In many cases it's obviously better to use software or hardware to tackle a particular problem at a particular level because the other one would be a clunky mess, but the isomorphism is long since proven. Hell, while you shouldn't quote me on this as my theoretical computer science is a mite rusty, I think that might even be implied directly by the Church-Turing thesis.
00:18
(Forgot that one, actually. I was thinking of the processor microcode, so throw in another layer.)
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:18 AM
(ah yes, always forget the microcode)
00:19
(quite a problem considering all the many times I need to consider it :V)
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(Never mind things like OS ports of the original code)
00:19
(( Oh right, it's JVM either way))
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Yep: the physical C-T derivative is "All physically computable functions are Turing-computable."
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:20 AM
Are there, uh, computational complexity classes above Turing-complete?
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Not unless hypercomputation is possible.
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:22 AM
"hypercomputation" being the acausal stuff?
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Well, that's one subset of it, but technically it's the rather unhelpful "any computation that can't be done on a Turing machine/quantum Turing machine".
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:24 AM
oh
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is another subset the self-referential ones like the Generalized Halting Problem?
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:25 AM
so the answer to "is there a class above bananas" is "all the stuff that isn't a banana"
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Turing oracles? Yeah, anything that can solve the GHP is a hypercomputer.
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00:27
So, closed timelike curves, Turing oracles, anything that can handle noncomputable reals, computers that can complete infinite steps in finite time, hypothetical quantum computers that can use an infinite superposition of states, other assorted weirdness like that.
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00:27
So, y'know, one of those situations in which time travel is actually the most easily realizable solution. 😄
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:28 AM
Speaking of which: As I understand it, the reason oracles are allowed to work in the 'verse is that the thing the oraculate produces will eventually actually be computed, right? (edited)
00:29
Thereby sidestepping possible bootstrap paradoxen?
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Well, technically, they don't need to be. Acausal logic processors depend on the notion that the answer to their problems is usually much easier to check than to compute.
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the other approach there, is to let the paradox prevention behavior of the universe do the work for you by presenting it questions that generate paradox when they produce the wrong answer
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:30 AM
ahh
00:30
So you just make it so that the "random" answers that come out of the oracle just happen to usually be the right answers?
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So the operating cycle of an ALP is 1. Receive an answer from the future. 2. Check if it is correct. 3. If and only if it is correct, transmit it to the past and then output it. Otherwise, transmit a random answer instead. Since the universe can't be inconsistent, this algorithm will always output correct answers.
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question
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(This looks like you're getting something for nothing; presumably the cost of the computation is extracted by whatever mechanism enforces chronological consistency, but the deep physics is, um, not yet effed.)
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:34 AM
So the power of an ALP comes from the existence of a fast, efficient way to check for correctness?
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isn't it consistant for the machine to fail to get an answer from the future?
00:35
@0111narwhalz at least "relative to an otherwise impossible problem"
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:36 AM
Well, if there is no fast way to validate an answer, you don't really gain anything over just computing it outright.
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The reason it transmits random (i.e., inconsistent) noise if it doesn't work is to close exactly that loophole.
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0111narwhalz 05/25/2019 12:37 AM
Unless it's actually not computable.
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I mean to say that "one thousand years" is still less than "infinity years"
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(For lots more of this, there's a paper here: https://www.scottaaronson.com/papers/ctchalt.pdf on what exactly ALPs can get you.)
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Might it not also select for weirdly low probability system failures?
01:11
Or things which exploit flaws in the checking process.
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Or just the wormhole collapsing.
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On a random note, my brain has been speculating on hypothetical IN tactics vs. imallett's impregnable asteroid forts.
20:45
After due consideration, I'm pretty sure the answer is "I got a rock".
20:49
As in - while keeping up the englobement outside its weapons range, find a conveniently small outer-system moon and apply a carefully calculated shove. Wait. Eventually, elapsed time depending on thrust available, your problem gets 10^15 tons of ice to the face and ceases to be a problem. This may be awkward if it's being used for planetary defense, but if you didn't want to receive 10^15 tons of ice, you probably shouldn't have given people a 10^15 tons of ice problem.
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Morgrim Moon 05/25/2019 8:54 PM
if you've upset someone so badly that they're willing to siege you for the multiple years it takes the excessively large snowball to arrive, you may have an issue. And also plenty of time to fix the issue, presumably at which point the IN goes and gives it another shove
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BizarroLand ♀ 05/25/2019 10:58 PM
What are these invincible forts exactly
23:00
If they’re just ‘impregnable’ because they’re bristling with lasers, then multiple kinetic shells from different angles traveling at a fast clip would do it
23:01
At a certain point there will be not enough lasers on one shell for long enough to melt it and bye-bye fort
23:03
That’d be my approach
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@Overmind I am majorly dissapointed that I cannot find a video from Legend of Galactic Heroes
00:24
There is a beautiful shot of them doing exactly that
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Enderminion 05/26/2019 9:19 PM
um @Overmind those Forts would have laser arrays as well, and can apply a very small amount of force to the rock and knock it completely off course
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10^15 tons needs more’n a small force.
21:23
Also, I can actively propel my small Moon-O-Doom, because I have a Moon-O-Doom to hide behind.
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chosen properly you don't even need to supply remass
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Enderminion 05/26/2019 9:24 PM
relatively small force
21:25
and it doesn't matter if it misses by an AU or a meter
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Sure. But if your one-meter miss requires a 52-mile deflection, it's rather a harder meter to generate than it looks.
21:32
(I have randomly selected Amalthea as my example projectile moon.)
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and every gigawatt the fort pumps into the distant target is N GW waste heat, and 1 less GW they have for point defense
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My tl;dr here amounts to: the defensive advantages of these fixes installations mostly come directly from their being a Big Damn Rock, which makes them readily co-optable by picking another Big Damn Rock to attack with.
21:41
It's slow and it's ugly, but ultimately, if you can force the fort into either cooking itself trying to overcome the even-better-because-unmanned heat dissipation capacities of your rock, or else taking a rock to the face, you win. (I say even better because you don't have to care about crew or equipment; hell, a molten rock or a rock chopped up into rubble will hit just as hard when it gets there. Granted, the latter will be a bastard to steer, but what's your backstop?)
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Let's not forget the most important part: your grunts can paint all sorts of messages on the rock. Instant morale boost.
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MarcusAurelius 05/27/2019 2:04 AM
"THIS SIDE TOWARDS ENEMY"
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BizarroLand ♀ 05/27/2019 4:26 AM
@Ian Bruene “I Bet You Don’t Feel So Clever Right About Now.” (edited)
04:30
In small print, if it’s a software mind
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Assuming there ever is a need for a one piece, modular clothing, how could you make a plausible "General combat suit" that fitted a wide range of tasks, such as general ground combat or piloting aircraft? (edited)
07:10
Such a thing also needs to be reasonably bulletproof against small weapons fire and heat resistant, all while being light and easy to wear.
07:11
Additionally, how practical would a "cloth adding or removing" system for adjusting size be? (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:16 AM
take a mechanical counterpressure suit, give it an outer layer of ballistic fiber and plenty of pockets (some for hard plates) and you're pretty much there. Not very, unless you're at the point like in the 'Verse where nanotech is a viable fastener technology. It compromises the integrity for the ballistic fiber, makes designing g-suit bladders harder, and makes counterpressure harder. Just go with a decently varied set of sizes to get "Close enough"
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I assumed that adding more fibre would be rather difficult
07:18
Would adding basic medical and biometric devices and sensors such as a defibrillator be feasible?
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Morgrim Moon 05/29/2019 7:18 AM
I don't think a defibrillator would be viable
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:19 AM
medical sensors aren't hard, defibrillators require pretty precise placement, clear skin contact, and really wouldn't be very useful.
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Morgrim Moon 05/29/2019 7:19 AM
it'd prevent anything else electronic being added to the suit, and unless you're prone to illness-related heart attacks (or just been electrocuted) a defibrillator is useless
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:19 AM
so heart rate, breathing rate, maybe even blood oxygenation is doable, beyond that I'm not sure
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It's there in case the wearer suffers heart irregularities from sustaining serious injury (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:20 AM
...no
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Morgrim Moon 05/29/2019 7:20 AM
except that isn't how it works
07:21
the heart attacks caused by injury don't cause the sort of heart rhythms that defibs can treat
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:21 AM
if the heart is directly injured, a defibrillator won't help you, and if it's from pneumothorax or bleeding out, you have bigger issues that will kill you long before heart irregularities do
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Morgrim Moon 05/29/2019 7:21 AM
they cause the sort of heart attack where the heart just stops functioning as a pump
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What could feasibly (at least minimally) stabilise the wearer? (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:22 AM
oh yeah, defibrillators don't start completely stopped hearts, they regularize rhythms
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I know
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:22 AM
from what injury?
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Gunshot
07:23
Anywhere but a critical, life ending shot to a vital area
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Morgrim Moon 05/29/2019 7:23 AM
shock treatments and internal bleeding. Not sure what they'd be. Some sort of pressure ooze that hardens?
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:24 AM
or if the suit is intact and strong enough, it can effectively act like a tourniquet
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I think there is an anti-bleeding stuff in the works (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:27 AM
after that, unless this is very far future stuff, it's up to the nearest medic to more permanently stop the bleeding, get fluids into them, etc
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I'm thinking near future stuff, at least 10-20 years from now technology-wise
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:28 AM
ah ,so counter-pressure suits aren't really that feasible then. Why would you want this? at current tech, we can't really make a universal suit that's good enough in every arena
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Only a number of them, does not have to be every situation. Just general infantry duties
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:29 AM
in space?
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Ground and air
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:30 AM
then give them a standard set of cammies for the ground troops, flightsuit and g-suit for air
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Could have some special forces uses too
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:34 AM
Special forces wear normal camo uniforms (edited)
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Direct combat would likely be slightly more armoured and have ports for shock equipment
07:38
The suit would likely have to have some ports for injecting medicine
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Morgrim Moon 05/29/2019 7:45 AM
armour isn't great for direct combat. At current tech levels our weapons vastly overwhelm our armour. Combat body armour is mostly for fragmentation and shrapnel protection, not direct strikes
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 8:19 AM
Not quite, modern hardplates can stop most pistol and intermediate rifle rounds. Those only protect the torso though.
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Morgrim Moon 05/29/2019 8:20 AM
huh, they've improved since I last researched
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 8:20 AM
Yeah, the US adopted interceptor around 2000ish
08:21
@Unknown why do you want it to be universal? There’s no advantage to that with modern tech. And you don’t need injection ports, you just roll up some of the sleeves or unfasten the collar
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Because doing so takes more precious time: Time to roll up the sleeve and time to aim properly at the target vein. It also exposes skin to enemy fire and the elements. (edited)
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BizarroLand ♀ 05/29/2019 9:48 AM
Bulletproof armor isn’t a magical ward against getting shot though
09:48
It still feels like being kicked
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 9:50 AM
Once again, where are you fighting? Elements aren’t that big of a deal on earth, and you won’t be doing first aid under fire, you pull them into a foxhole or behind a wall. And a little bit quicker timing isn’t worth the possibility of injury from having needles in while getting shot at
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Well, it depends on which environment the fighting is taking place. If it is an environment with a hazardous atmosphere or usage of gas weapons, it would be dangerous to compromise integrity, assuming the suit has self sealing or otherwise breach isolating properties (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 11:55 AM
if you're in a CBRN environment, the tear in your suit from the injury is either going to give you a lethal dose, or it's low level enough that they can afford to cut it open and actually get a sightline on a vein. self-sealing and breach isolating are hard to do, MOP suits don't do it, neither do IIRC all biohazard lab suits
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A mechanical counterpressure suit prevents air leaks in space through counterpressure (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 11:58 AM
and once again IS THIS SUIT FOR A SPACE ENVIRONMENT? if not, mechanical counterpressure is a massive logistical and monetary hit that isn't worth it
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Nope
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 11:59 AM
then for CBRN, you use MOP suits
11:59
they'll keep you alive while letting you move and fight
12:00
if you get hit, isolating won't make much of a difference because most of the agents used in warfare are either irritants that won't cause major damage most places, or neurotoxins lethal enough that getting in your bloodstream at all is deadly
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I think this may depend on your trade-offs. On the one hand, building multi-environment friendly is hard, the more so the more variation you want it to handle. On the other hand, if you don't know where you might be fighting, the logistics costs of hauling around a wide variety of different equipment just in case you need it is a cost of its own.
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Although it does have limited vacuum capability: It is sealed from the environment, although can only passively cool
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:01 PM
then it's a waste on Earth where it will just weight down and slow down your soldier
12:01
and for aircraft, outside of spyplanes they don't fly high enough for pressure suits to be necessary
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Hence the IL policy of making their standard armor cover the majority of the environments they might find themselves in, and paying the cost of that generalization to avoid the logistics costs, and only using specialty armor for the notably infrequent/extreme cases.
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Yes, there would be speciality versions
12:03
A C-suit would require some modification to man rate for space
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:03 PM
true, but they're far enough into future tech that they're running vacuum sealed power armor. Not too practical for "10-20 years hence near future". and generally militaries don't haul everything, they only bring what they expect to use, and have everything else in central depots ready to get airlifted
12:03
c-suit?
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Combat suit
12:04
Or GC (edited)
12:04
General Combat Suit
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:05 PM
ok, let's start from the beginning. What environment(s) is this for, who is going to be using it, and what is it meant to protect against?
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It is meant for the general infantryman
12:05
General infantry environments
12:05
Limited protection against chemical attack
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:05 PM
so, MOP suits
12:06
they already exist, and they're cheap, easy to ship, and don't slow soldiers down that much
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It is also computerised with lightweight biometrics and pulse stabilisation equipment
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:07 PM
"pulse stabilization"? and biometrics are a lot of money to be throwing at line infantry, you can tell most of what you need to know from external signs (edited)
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Yeah, I'm just using that as an example of the principle. In the near future, the window for generalization-vs-logistics tradeoffs is smaller, but I don't think it necessarily vanishes. (And in their case - well, given space scales, you don't want to find yourself in a situation where you need to get things shipped in from the nearest depot unless you aren't in any hurry. If you need to deploy tomorrow and the depot with the special suits is eight weeks transit time away, your day is going to suck. To a certain extent, cornucopias help to get around this problem, but they're a terrible way to make every part, and also aren't all that fast.)
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It is powered by a network of thermocouples and the occasional kinetic harvester
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:09 PM
yeah, but they're at the point where their CBRN and vacuum equipment is their standard issue gear, where here we don't use it unless we need it, because big rubber suits tire people out and make them sweat like crazy
12:09
no, just use batteries
12:09
that's higher mass, lower efficiency, and higher cost (edited)
12:11
and they have truly universal camo, where here we need to have desert, woodland, and winter
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There are different camos
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:12 PM
...what is that in response to? I was addressing Cerebrate's comparison to "present" Legion equipment, should be obvious in context
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I thought
12:13
You were saying I didn't mention that they would require camo for different environments (edited)
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I think that's one of those environment-drives-tech scenarios. When having to fight in vacuum is about as common as having to fight in, I don't know, trees in a randomly selected deployment, you're really incentivized to figure out how to make that possible in your standard-issue gear. I'd heard that we have people working on programmable camo today.
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:13 PM
yeah, but it's not as effective as normal camo, and far more expensive
12:14
which matters when even a small military wants thousands of infantry
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Would simply painting over the armour skin work for my suit?
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:14 PM
depends on what it's made of
12:15
it's probably easier to go with replaceable cloth coverings like we use for helmets
12:15
and your suit belongs pretty much only in vacuum or on Mars, btw
12:15
it's still a waste for Earth
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Yeah. My figuring on that was one of those trade-offs - given the sheer number of different backgrounds across everywhere they might be fighting, the amount of repainting required starts to make chameleon coatings look like the bargain option.
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Aha!
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:16 PM
you'd be surprised, the US uses three patterns and they cover pretty much every environment on Earth decently
12:16
well, three per service
12:16
(The Marines and Army use different camo)
12:18
but for the legions it makes sense, the tech is mature, might as well use it
12:19
and @Unknown, why are you expecting chemical weapons?
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I'm thinking interplanetary is where it gets messy. Even in the solar system - well, our winter patterns might work for most of the ice moons, but desert isn't going to work for Mars or Io, and Titan, say, is right off the map. And, of course, almost all the vegetation of Earth is conveniently within a fairly limited range of greens.
12:23
(I don't think it was a terribly accurate assessment, but I saw one suggestion that if you're in any sort of locally-illuminated part of Titan, with habitat lights or some such, your best option for camo might be one of those high-visibility orange vests. 😃 )
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:24 PM
true, but the Mars Expeditionary Force can get their Rust Red and Icepack White patterns, Titan another, etc. we can always forward stash them at depots near that area (e.g. Fleet Station Jupiter has camo sets for all of the moons) should a unit need to get redeployed quickly without getting a chance to stop by and get new camo. And of course, if they have metallic outer layers, just repaint them like we do with vehicles
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((None of which is to deny your point. Three patterns for everywhere is really pretty darn impressive.))
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:26 PM
well, they work decently more or less anywhere. Obviously woodland has to carry a lot of slack, and has some issues in urban environments and such. But the most important part is not blending in but breaking up the silhouette, and they do that well pretty much anywhere that is sharply contrasting with the pattern
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It's meant to be a standard infantry garment. The chemical protection is there to protect against possible use of gas weapons such as tear gas or sarin (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:52 PM
In which case, BDUs already cover all to nearly of the skin and are decent protection from irritants, gas masks for tear gas, and if someone is dropping Sarin on you bring MOP suits. The extra weight and encumbrance is not worth it otherwise, it slows you down, tires you out, makes you overhear quicker, etc
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It can switch to an attached oxygen tank from an external atmospheric intake when certain gases the filter cannot handle are present (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:52 PM
That’s called a gas mask
12:53
Then they’re bad enough you’re wearing MOP suits and you’re willing to take the penalties associated
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it's meant to absorb certain functions of NBC gear
12:53
it only offers a small amount of protection against penetrating radiation (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:54 PM
CBRN gear doesn’t directly protect against radiation IIRC, that’s what nuclear war medical kits are for. You down a bunch of pills
12:55
And once again, CBRN gear is very sub-optimal outside of CBRN environments
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The armour layer acts as the radiation shield
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 12:59 PM
Probably not, ceramics aren’t that dense, neither is Kevlar. And the main armor only will cover the torso and head anyway if this thing had a reasonable mass
13:01
Plate carrier,webbing, cammies and helmet already masses over 15 kilos
13:02
My advice: look at what is used now, look at why it’s designed the way it is, and compare it to your scenario and see why trade offs are now worth it
13:02
Because so far you haven’t posited anything different from modern considerations, and modern solutions should work well
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 5:54 PM
Actually yeah @Kerr would Kevlar or ceramic be decent at blocking radiation from fallout? (edited)
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Alpha or Beta, sure. Gamma probably not.
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Gamma and X-ray, no
17:55
lead is way too heavy
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It may help with low intensity x-rays.
17:59
Rad suits apparently have lead lining, activated carbon, and a lot of rubber.
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 6:21 PM
Lead isn’t useful armor, so yes
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Not part of my light design
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 6:30 PM
I still don’t get why you want to issue CBRN gear to line infantry and pilots
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It saves on logistics and reduces specialization
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 6:32 PM
No?
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TotallyNotHuman 05/29/2019 6:32 PM
yeah, sure, because the point of CBRN gear isn't specialization
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Incorporates light chemical protection
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 6:33 PM
They’re harder to haul, more expensive, and they’re less good at why they’re trying to do
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Goodnight everyone
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TotallyNotHuman 05/29/2019 6:33 PM
By incorporating CBRN gear you have to reduce effectiveness against conventional attacks or increase mass.
18:33
oh okay V:
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 6:33 PM
Do you still think this is a good idea?
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It needs design reconsiderations
18:34
but design is worth looking into (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 6:35 PM
Without extreme context that you haven’t provided, no, it doesn’t
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Morgrim Moon 05/29/2019 7:09 PM
bluntly if sarin gas is on the field your troops are OFF the field, there is no infantry equipment on earth that lets you properly FIGHT on foot while protecting you from that.
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:10 PM
There’s MOP gear. It slows you down but it will protect you as long as you don’t get hit
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Morgrim Moon 05/29/2019 7:16 PM
but it's very hard to fight in
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MarcusAurelius 05/29/2019 7:18 PM
If you’re foot infantry it’s hell, yeah. Troops wore it in Iraq 2 and it went fine, but they weren’t exactly in high intensity conflict
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The No Transhumanism Allowed trope as used in popular culture. In speculative fiction settings with very high technological levels, older Space Opera in …
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That’s the Vonnies
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Hmmm.... are you sure that transhumans that measure morality in bacon production would be a majority?
08:57
This is all another case of "Writer Future Assumption Failure" How can you be certain that the people of 2600 will be completely alien and post singularity? They could just act the way people do today, albeit with a few slight tweaks to mentality or emotions; Apart from that, I'm not too sure our values will change much, as we and most species with a brain evolved to behave in a certain manner that helped us to survive and thrive in a hostile environment. (edited)
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Talking about transhumanism: I have doubts that the pace of technological development will accelerate exponentially. If such a thing was possible, then the universe would have been consumed in a singulatarian firestorm. It is but a poorly researched hypothesis that ignores parties outside of humanity. (edited)
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Morgrim Moon 06/01/2019 9:23 AM
until we FIND some non-human sophants, we can't do anything other than speculate
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"Iron riding" ships require no propellant, unlike ships with thermal laser propulsion: The propellant is launched at the ship, and the energy of the iron pellets can be efficiently recovered at the last stop behind the ship (edited)
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It would be helpful to give the pellets some form of rudimentary brain and manuvering system to correct errors, making capture easier. If you can get it to line itself up after being propelled behind the ship, you could potentially feed the pellets to another ship behind it, creating a kind of "trainline" (edited)
02:58
think of the cost savings of an almost completely renewable launch network that doesn't require setting up expensive and delicate mirrors, let alone the propellant to capture the lasers energy and convert it to thrust (edited)
03:00
Even with torch drives, that propellant is still wasted due to being launched into the big dark
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It's scaling over interstellar distances depends on durability against high speed collisions with particles, ability to deliver propellant to target and hardening of onboard electronics against radiation. (edited)
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It would be very expensive to give each individual pellet some sort of onboard computer.
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It only has to be able to line itself up with the solenoid tube
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You've gone from "cheap bit of rock" to "needs some sort of integrated circuit, propellant reservoir and engine".
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If it's aimed properly then course correction isn't an issue
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Then aim it properly.
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 9:58 AM
you don't need to use laser thermal, you could just use laser sails
09:58
which allows a network that a. doesn't need catching stations b. doesn't throw high velocity debris around the system c. requires negligible material input
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Laser sails are S L O W, they require ridiculous amounts of power to move and usually have very weak thrust
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Have you actually calculated whether this would be better?
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0111narwhalz 06/02/2019 12:18 PM
The energy-dV conversion of photonics is close to pessimal, no?
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 12:20 PM
yes, but that doesn't matter too much when you can get multiple terawatts pretty easily
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As a budding tinkerer, I have decided to run a few projects concerning prototyping bionic systems. What bionic systems should I start with? I have an idea for a subdermal speaker array for broadcasting messages, sounding alarms and acting as a form of self-defence system. (edited)
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Don’t
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I don't plan to install any, just to research and prototype them (edited)
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I also have proposals for a brain extension system made up of a system of subdermal implants scanning impulses in the brain and either 1: Artificially generating new electronic memory clusters with a solid state storage system immediately accessible to the brain via communication with memory access and storage neurons. 2: Passively capturing neuron transmission cycles and storing them on a nearby data storage system. (edited)
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... learn biology first?
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 1:40 PM
why an alarm system of all things, you have a perfectly functional voice. 2. that is not practical near term, and not all brain signals are electric, you will be missing data and have limited outputs doing that
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The implants read the impulses of the hippocampus and convert them to binary
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 1:41 PM
...that is not how that works
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Nerve cells generate magnetic fields during operation
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 1:42 PM
much of the data in the brain is transmited by chemical signals at the synapses, and affected by the hormones and other chemicals in the environment. IF so, they'd be pretty negligible, neurons don't use that much electricity
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See? "Learn biology first" is great advice for this!
13:48
This is also more #random.
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An alarm system is louder
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How would you power it, anyway? An embedded potato powercell?
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 1:52 PM
not really? Humans can generate quite loud screams, any practical sub-dermal system would be quieter
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You could also duct-tape a Bluetooth speaker to a hat for a similar system without the complexities of actually implanting it.
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That is a problem. One solution is to beam power to the implants
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Through flesh?
13:54
We’re full of water, that tends to be pretty effective at blocking signals
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For now they will be external
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If you don't want external stuff all the time - which would defeat the point anyway - you would need a battery. Those have problems like needing replacement, and exploding/melting/bad things if used wrong.
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 1:55 PM
Tronzoid, sit down and work out something reasonable, then come back
⬆ 1
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Also, learn biology.
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 1:56 PM
this is less biology issues and tech issues. Once he comes with reasonable tech designs, then we can figure out how to integrate it
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True, but it would probably help.
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It is largely hypothetical at the moment. No details have been thoroughly figured out as of yet, apart from the few I have described (edited)
14:01
I'm going to focus on more currently achievable designs, such as the speaker system
14:01
No implanting for the near future
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:01 PM
a better idea: Start with something that would actually have a use
14:01
like the magnetic sense implants people are working on
14:02
medical implants
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BizarroLand ♀ 06/02/2019 2:03 PM
We already know people’s senses can adapt to the stimuli of new implants
14:04
Almost as though they’d been born like that
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The magnetic sense implants are just neodymium magnets inserted under the skin.
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:07 PM
yeah, but a. they do something useful (or at least interesting) b. they are easy to make body safe c. they don't have common nasty failure modes
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A brain scanning system is perfectly safe if it's external
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:08 PM
and is currently useless for everything but novelty toys
14:08
and/or is an fMRI machine and takes up most of a room
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There are a bunch of useless external ones around, and I think are fairly cheap, if useless.
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If it allows cognitive expansion I'll develop something
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I've seen one which said it detected level of focus or something.
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BizarroLand ♀ 06/02/2019 2:09 PM
Cognitive expansion in this day an age?
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Even if it involves sitting in a chair surrounded by machines
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The thing in the “force master” toy is a biofeedback thing that takes your blood pressure and skin conductivity
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:10 PM
we already have cognitive expansion machines. They're called phones, and don't require you being tied down
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And calculators, notepads, etc.
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:10 PM
and are practical with current tech
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But it requires less efficient data pathways
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:10 PM
we don't have better ones available
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A desktop computer (with peripherals) is great cognitive expansion and has decent IO.
14:11
So is basically any internet-connected device.
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:11 PM
yup. My desktop, two monitors and a mouse and keyboard is more than enough
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Audiovisual stuff is quite high-bandwidth.
14:11
You can pack a lot of data onto monitors, and process it without horrible difficulty.
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But what if you want to do other things at the same time?
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:12 PM
I have access to most of the knowledge of present humanity, can communicate with others and correlate my thoughts easily
14:12
humans are bad at multi-tasking
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Tronzoid: it's called "multi-window support".
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:12 PM
and get a second monitor
14:12
or just split windows
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I've heard it said that multimonitor vs multiwindowing is just because people are mostly used to the terrible multi-window capabilities of common OSes.
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The final iteration involves artificially simulating frontal cortex and hippocampus neurons
14:17
...If the hippocampus wasn't so hard to actively access and interact with.
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:17 PM
nah, I just need the space usually
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Scanning, yes, scanning and communicating on the fly? difficult to do
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:20 PM
so yeah, this in not near term tech.
14:21
@gollark I like two monitors because I like being able to run full resolution programs on one and everything else on the other. Games especially. For some things I just double or quad split my main monitor
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The frontal cortex is much easier to access, being nearer to the surface of the head.
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:23 PM
it's still under the skull, and if you mess up at any point you scramble the main part of the processing power of the brain
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Yes, it is rather risky to tamper with. Brain tissue isn't just a bunch of amorphous blobs. Our frontal cortex is COMPLEX (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:25 PM
so once again, not practical near term, and we don't really know enough about the brain to make a functioning interface
14:27
so please stop stating common knowledge and provide something for us to work with
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Well, better stick to the ol' magnets and health monitors (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 06/02/2019 2:29 PM
or, like with most things, start with "what's a problem implants can solve?"
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BizarroLand ♀ 06/02/2019 5:18 PM
@MarcusAurelius blindness?
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Missing limbs, deafness, diabetes...
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i was gonna list some but then I realized the phone type solution still worked for them (GPS Tracking, new senses, better data I/O )
14:48
though new senses like, say, heat, are probably mediated into a vision type sense either way
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Oh by the way @Overmind, just as I was reading one of your old postings (Grounding) - you don't want to use graphite on a nuclear shuttle landing/launch pad. I have that on good authority and explanation from GerritB over on ToughSF. Graphite activates, and it activates into nasty stuff. It's actually not a very good nuclear pad coating.
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Check out this lower arm guard I forged
14:13
14:17
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MarcusAurelius 06/23/2019 2:18 PM
Awesome tron! Also, “vambrace” if you want the old fashioned term
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Nice work.
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MarcusAurelius 06/23/2019 2:27 PM
Are you planning to add a gauntlet
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I'm planning to make a suit of plate armour from sheets of metal
14:43
Fitting the thing is the problem, could add hinges, but it would be a pain to install (edited)
14:44
It feels rather sturdy, despite being cold forged from two computer part pannelings
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MarcusAurelius 06/23/2019 2:47 PM
Not sure I’d trust it as armor, but given some finishing work it could look nice
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Well, it certainly took being hit with a hanmer
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MarcusAurelius 06/23/2019 3:28 PM
A clawhammer ‘Tis not a mace of war
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Close enough
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Would it be better to strap the plates to a shirt?
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That wouldn’t provide any impact protection. The shock would just transfer through the plate to you
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It's to make donning and doffing easier, a bit like medieval setups
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Might stop a knife or sword though, probably not an axe
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The casing I used felt pretty sturdy
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0111narwhalz 06/23/2019 5:26 PM
Consider the difference between whacking something with a hammer, and really putting your full weight behind a strike with a tool designed to break armor.
17:29
Also consider the fact that you've bent that piece, which is going to destroy a lot of the structure it gained from bends in the sheet metal.
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Nothing some tempering can't fix, although I don't exactly have a forge or the budget for one (edited)
17:57
@MarcusAurelius Yes, I do plan to add a gauntlet in the glove by plating it, possibly with the same kind of steel used in the casing (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 06/23/2019 5:59 PM
Fun. Still, it’s not armor steel, and since it’s been cold worked it won’t be as strong. Would look cool though. If you want to go proper medieval, you’d wear a Gambeson or arming doublet under it
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 1:43 AM
It's not a stable system—any perturbation results in continued deviation from the flightplan.
01:44
If you miss a pellet, or a pellet doesn't have the velocity you expect, or you didn't simulate your flight with enough precision—because there's no known analytical solution to the n-body problem—you will lose the stream.
01:44
(and that's if the stream is low-density enough that it doesn't hit you instead of the momentum coupler)
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hmm, magnetically coupling the streams to keep them in line would be impossible
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 1:45 AM
You want to induce a current through the stream of pellets?
01:45
That's a known source of instability in plasma containments.
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they are separated slighly, no way!
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 1:46 AM
Well, that's how you create a magnetic field.
01:47
Adding magnetism is a great way to make things even more complicated.
01:47
(read: even more unstable)
01:47
Because if you have a stream of charged particles, or magnetic dipoles, you start getting into plasmadynamics territory.
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perhaps the directing of the pellets to the next station could be done via a computer controlled waypoint beacon system with a solenoid at the rear of the spacecraft
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 1:48 AM
Last I checked there's about fifty distinct kinds of plasma instability.
01:48
Probably they'll discover a dozen or so more with the next couple generations of fusion reactor.
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I plan to keep the costs low, so they are made of iron. Iron is very abundant in the solar system, especially on mars and the asteroid belt (edited)
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 1:49 AM
Oh, no, this whole thing's gotta be planned before the flight begins.
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yep
01:49
the stream is preplanned
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 1:49 AM
Every piece of equipment is either computer-controlled, locked into the flightplan, or dumb.
01:50
You probably don't even want crew aboard—not because they might get killed by a slight misalignment, but because they might shift the mass of the spacecraft around.
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A network of mass drivers send iron pellets to each other, and spacecraft ride it, pretty much like a train network
01:51
perhaps a cluster of mass driver deceleerators could encircle the main station
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 1:51 AM
(though they absolutely can be killed by a slight misalignment)
01:51
I think you'd be much better off using remote laser ablation
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The problem is: propellant is irreversibly lost to space
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 1:52 AM
Light travels vastly faster, so you can actually redirect the beam midflight.
01:52
Propellant is cheap.
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the proposal is about (near)zero expenditure of mass (edited)
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 1:52 AM
Especially with ablative methods.
01:53
Because you don't even need specific materials.
01:53
Sure, there are options that would significantly reduce your performance, but they'll still work
01:54
And a laser pretty certainly will hit you at a few lightminutes, because its spot size will be diffracted to kilometers across by then.
01:55
(unless its aperture ungodly large, such as a planetary disk phased array)
01:55
(in which case it can hit you even better)
01:56
Compare to a massive coilgun.
01:56
The pellets don't get bigger the further they go, so while error in aim angle is constant, error in projectile radii increases markedly with greater range.
01:57
And I don't think you're talking about making the collecters kilometers across.
01:57
Plus there's another dimension of error: muzzle velocity.
01:58
Lasers always come out at the same speed.
01:58
It's way cheaper to make laser collectors, too.
01:59
Mirrors are less massive and less selective about materials than giant solenoids.
02:00
And anyways, bulk mass is cheap on the scale of a solar system.
02:01
Eventually, most of your propellant will probably land on something, unless you shot it out at stellar escape velocity.
02:02
(which I think requires a temperature of about the surface of the sun for thermal rockets)
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Could make the collectors a big bigger
02:06
but yeah, lasers seem to be a better option
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 2:06 AM
You can't make them big enough that you will reliably collect pellets, unless you just absorb pellets.
02:07
At least not with anything that can reasonably be called a "ship"
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MarcusAurelius 06/29/2019 2:33 PM
they thing is the propellent expenditure is all but certainly cheaper than this massive and frankly useless infrastructure project, while being safer and more versatile and more generally useful
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True, can't exactly place tiny mass drivers with the same amount of versatility
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 5:10 PM
It's not about where you can put the installations.
17:10
It's about what you can do with them.
17:10
You can respond more quickly to changing circumstances with lasers.
17:12
Also, ground-based lasers with ablative propulsion could be useful in low-orbital maneuvering.
17:13
You don't want propulsion-grade mass drivers shooting through your low orbit spacelanes.
👍 4
17:13
(plus they can only provide impulse in a limited set of directions, while laser ablative drives can point the nozzle wherever they need to)
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If a spacecraft broke down, and it still had a functioning laser absorber, several laser mirrors could be redirected to aid it
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 5:14 PM
Solar moths are a popular option for backup propulsion for that reason.
17:15
If your NTR fails in one of the ways that doesn't kill everyone onboard, you can just unfold the collection mirrors and heat the propellant by solar or laser.
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Would it be mass-inexpensive to give a warship a backup photonic energy collector? it's literally just a bunch of mirrors and a cavity (edited)
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 5:16 PM
Mirrors are, again, pretty cheap, and mostly work even with small holes in them.
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MarcusAurelius 06/29/2019 5:17 PM
the problem is they're pretty low thrust, they likely won't be that useful for their mass on a warship
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 5:17 PM
Not for combat operations, certainly.
17:17
But they are essentially just another thermal rocket.
17:18
And there are designs out there for, uh, LH2-cooled liquid rhenium-core solar rockets.
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A laser moth pretty much operates the same way as an NTR, only it does not use nuclear fuel onboard. (edited)
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 5:18 PM
You take a rotating drum with hot rhenium and bubble your liquid hydrogen remass through it.
17:19
(molten rhenium being, I presume, the liquid with the lowest vapor pressure)
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can't see why you can't develop a plasma version as well, with the laser energy heating up an inert gas kept away from everything else by a loop of cooler inert gas or a magnetic bottle (edited)
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 5:20 PM
5800K is about as hot as you can get with material bounds.
17:21
Also consider that plasmas typically have radically different absorption spectra to their gases.
17:22
Which makes things… difficult if you want to heat your working fluid from gas to plasma using the same radiation source.
17:22
Probably precludes monochromatic sources like single lasers.
17:25
Plus if you want to run a magnetic bottle, you have to turn some of the incident power into electrical power, which may be a challenge :V
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One way to insert energy into the gas would be to use a pulsed laser to ionise the gas. Another method would be to convert the laser energy into microwaves to heat the gas, but this depends on what wavelength is being used and availability of equipment to convert energy to microwaves (edited)
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 5:28 PM
Alternatively, if you want to hybridize the laser thermal rocket with your bad idea to produce an even worse idea, use a neutral particle beam :V
17:29
Pro: Real good at heating plasmas
17:29
Con: Deeply penetrating indirectable beam
17:29
(consider also that masers exist)
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masers like to diffract alot (edited)
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 5:30 PM
well yes that's just a property of radiation in general
17:30
but it's also much easier to coordinate massive phased arrays
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The microwave convertors are onboard
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0111narwhalz 06/29/2019 5:32 PM
(I'm not sure frequency division is really a thing though)
17:33
ah, it is
17:33
it's how they generate entangled photons, apparently
17:33
that's cool
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What would be an appropiate term for something that would drastically amplify the rate a creatures DNA evolves? It is for a game I am writing (edited)
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 4:28 AM
mutagen. Be warned, that basically means it's changing and the vast majority of DNA changes are harmful
04:29
if you want actual evolution then pick a direction and kill the half the adults who least match it every generation
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What I want to implement is a genetic modification that drastically increases the rate DNA mutates in response to environmental stimuli, but requires that little to no radiation or foreign mutatgens are present (edited)
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 4:30 AM
I'd say you're misunderstanding how DNA drift works
04:30
because it doesn't mutate in response to environmental stimuli
04:31
well. Not unless that stimuli is harmful to cell replication
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 4:38 AM
Incidentally, the NEAT architecture is highly tolerant of mutations.
04:40
The documentation advises a massive point mutation (reassignment of the values of every synaptic weight) rate of 90%, and a 3% or 5% chance of, respectively, added synapses or added neurons.
04:41
(also a 1‰ chance of crossing with an organism outside the species)
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The mutation has to be caused by an outside source, otherwise it's just gonna kill the user (edited)
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 4:41 AM
...I am guessing the searching I've been doing on biology for "what is NEAT" should be in gaming instead
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 4:42 AM
nah it should be in machine learning
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 4:42 AM
argh
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 4:42 AM
also Tronzoid the thing you want doesn't exist
04:42
Sorry.
04:42
Time to apply acceptable changes from reality for the purposes of gameplay
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 4:43 AM
A better search term might be its full name, "neuroevolution of augmenting topologies"
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This game has a focus on realism, so anything that won't work won't be implemented (edited)
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 4:43 AM
but plenty of real things don't work ⍩
04:45
Anyways, the main benefit of implicit genetic encoding, as typical of how DNA works, is that you can make whatever shaped thing you want out of it.
04:45
That is also its greatest downfall, because small changes in the genome can cause large changes in the product.
04:46
And a large change in a protein can cause a cascade of large changes in the organism as a whole.
04:46
Really it's amazing it's only taken us as long as it has V:
04:47
Direct genetic encoding—describing the structure from a genome which is somewhat representative of said structure—is much more stable.
04:49
The way NEAT's genome works is tolerant, not only to changes of synaptic weights, but also to the addition of entirely new topology, because its encoding of what is effectively an incidence table is similar to the directed graph structure of an artificial neural network.
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 4:51 AM
I'm not familiar with it but I already strongly dislike it, for using biology terms and using them just wrongly enough to be irritating
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 4:51 AM
welcome to machine learning
04:52
I'm curious, though—what terms are misused how?
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 4:55 AM
"large change in a protein can cause a cascade of large changes in the organism as a whole" generally the only thing that happens when you make a large change in a protein is 'death', which is I suppose a large change in the organism
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 4:55 AM
it is among the largest possible changes :V
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 4:56 AM
yes but it's not evolution or adaption or anything relevant to the rest. It's simple "you broke it"
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 4:56 AM
Which is the point I was trying to convey.
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 4:57 AM
also "describing the structure from a genome which is somewhat representative of said structure" doesn't parse as a senisical comment
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 4:57 AM
Maybe I've been immersed in ML too much lately—I assumed everyone knew that small changes in the genome should map to small changes in behaviour, for optimization reasons :V
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 4:58 AM
no, generally small changes in genome map to mammoth deviations
04:58
at least in a biological sense
04:58
and it is very rarely behavioural; that requires a LOT of very small subtle changes to different parts of the genome (edited)
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 4:59 AM
Well, it's the difference of "go forward ten steps" which changes into a radically different path if you happen to be facing a different direction from earlier small changes, versus "go north ten steps" which still gives you mostly the same path even if something changes earlier in the synthesis.
05:00
The point I was trying to make is that biologically, small genetic changes lead to massive functional changes.
05:01
If you're trying to write a good optimizer, you want the change made to the genome to lead to proportional functional changes.
05:01
It's better for exploring the solution space efficiently, you see.
05:02
I think it's been hypothesized that "junk DNA" contributes to the stability of the system despite small changes, but that's your field, not mine. (edited)
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 5:03 AM
I think the confusion is that in most programming applications, the encoding (or DNA) is a blueprint. It gets executed mostly faithfully, you can make changes and get consistant results. Biologically DNA is more like a musical score. You feed it to an orchestra, but the players and the conductor all have a massive affect, it's a system of interelated tones that combine to perform the product, and depending on luck a single wrong note is either unnoticable or a catastropy
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 5:03 AM
Right, which is hell for most optimization algorithms.
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 5:03 AM
which means an orchestra is a lot more resiliant and self correcting, but much harder to predict
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 5:04 AM
That inconsistency makes gradient descent and backpropogation and other optimizers really hard.
05:05
Ideally, your assembly/assessment algorithm should not need to be "self-correcting."
05:05
That's supposed to be entirely the optimizer's job.
05:06
And that's why I marvel at how effective, if perhaps not efficient, biological evolution has managed to be.
05:08
It's so contrary to my understanding of how you build a good optimizer.
05:10
(granted, my implementation of NEAT has run into some… difficulties, but that's just my implementation—the real ones are doing crazy stuff)
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 5:10 AM
I think because you're being obsessed with optimising.
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 5:11 AM
I mean, is that not the point?
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 5:11 AM
Biology works on "is it effective" before "is it efficient". Overkill is just fine. Cludgy hacks are okay as long as they keep working.
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 5:11 AM
Organisms persist because they do something well, better than their competitors.
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 5:12 AM
yes, and their competitors tend to be running on the same spagetti code
05:12
First you make it work. Then you make it work REALLY WELL and pray the requirements don't change under you.
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 5:12 AM
Because they are more likely to persist if they do a better job than their competitors, they necessarily must progressively improve.
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 5:12 AM
No, there's the error you're making.
05:13
Unless it is a high-competition niche, the reining champion always has a hefty advantage over the incumbant.
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 5:14 AM
"find a valid solution" is the first step of an optimizer; it's just easy in most challenges because a well-designed solution space has gradients towards good solutions at every point.
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 5:14 AM
and if you've hyperspecialised, the beauty of it is the lack of competition. The danger is the weakness to that niche shifting.
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 5:14 AM
NEAT does try to represent the champion's advantage through speciation.
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 5:15 AM
Evolutionary drift is rarely smooth transitions. It's long periods of status quo, an introduced outside force, and then massive rapid divergence
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 5:15 AM
Which is also real bad for most contemporary machine learning processes.
05:16
Unless there's transferrable knowledge between the old and new problems, anyway.
05:17
Which I guess is how most of biological evolution works: finding transferable knowledge in the most unlikely of places.
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 5:18 AM
frequently, yeah.
05:18
that and lots of balancing of tradeoffs
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 5:19 AM
If you can do something at all you have time to figure out how to do it better.
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 5:19 AM
"I can get this infectious disease resistance in exchange for increased risk of allergies, autoimmune conditions and heart attacks. Those tend to happen late in life after I've bred. Sold"
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 5:20 AM
"not my kids' problem!"
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 5:20 AM
(and that's the sarcastic summary of heart disease in western vs anywhere else populations)
05:22
(white people have super plague-resistance powers at the cost of reduced physical traits and later health issues. Because when you wipe out 1/4 of the infant population in most generations and 1/3 of the breeding population two generations running, you get massive evolutionally pressure to focus on just That One Thing and blow the consequences)
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 5:23 AM
Bottlenecking!
05:23
(another effective technique to use on stagnating populations V:)
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So much for the white "master race", oh the irony is palpable. Anyway, yeah. Evolution is blind.
07:28
It throws things against the wall and sees what sticks.
07:28
It‘s had a lot of time to throw things at the wall, however.
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@Morgrim Moon I can agree on allergies, given how many over-the-counter immuno-suppressants I take every spring and summer. But African-Americans have an even higher risk of heart disease than Caucasians, which would suggest a dietary/economic cause
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 8:34 AM
it's more than caucasians have a heightened inflamatory response, and heart disease is one of the symptoms
08:38
I am... somewhat reluctant to discuss genetics in relation to health issues for african americans, given the the whole issue with being a recent genetic smashup of caucasian, west african and caribbean and I've not seen much research that I consider remotely trustworthy. Also wow that was a hard sentence to write. Whomever I've most likely insulted, feel free to mentally slap me.
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Y'know, if you really want to annoy the master race types with irony, it's always fun to point out how much of our Caucasian awesomeness comes from our neanderthal DNA. Which is to say, yes, white folks do have a special superpower-granting event in our history. It's full sex-outside-our-species miscegenation .
13:37
So, y'know, all their anti-race-mixing propaganda is actually doing is preventing us from continuing to fuck our way up the awesomeness ladder by stealing the good genes from everyone else.
13:37
VOTE EXOGAMY.
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Historically, they’ve used neaderthal DNA to support their claim that superior white blood is contaminated with inferior non-neanderthal genes
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That one I had not heard.
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I might also note that they’ve found more neanderthal genes in East Asians than in Europeans
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GLORY TO EURASIA. ...you're bringing way too much fact to what is basically just a way to troll dumb-ass racists, though. 😁 (edited)
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Well, it should still be true.
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Hey, it is true. It's just not the whole truth.
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sdschildberg 07/06/2019 2:35 PM
Given how often neanderthal=dumb is used, let the meme stand
14:36
Racial supremacists wont like to find out that they are part neanderthal
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Enderminion 07/06/2019 3:06 PM
We've Always been at war with Eurasia
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MarcusAurelius 07/06/2019 3:08 PM
A lot of the good genes come from other human species. Tibetan high-altitude and Bajuan diving proficiency are both partially denisovan derived
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There is also that part where it looks like some of the autisim like variants of human psychology come from the neandrathal side. It turns out that the weirdos who are willing to go poke at everything are necessary.
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Given how many geeks are on or verging on the autism spectrum that is zero surprise
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Morgrim Moon 07/06/2019 9:42 PM
And pre computing having some human memory banks was damned helpful
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What, are you saying we’ve been building our own replacements?
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0111narwhalz 07/06/2019 9:58 PM
I mean we've been doing that since children were a thing
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What would be a good design process for making a game? I am writing my lore via a timeline tree, related events and persons splitting off from former, related events or persons (edited)
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Morgrim Moon 07/07/2019 4:39 AM
step one: decide what sort of game you want to build. Like genre and programming language
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Python.
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Morgrim Moon 07/07/2019 4:39 AM
genre?
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Survival roguelike
04:40
It is top down and uses ASCII graphics, for now
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Morgrim Moon 07/07/2019 4:40 AM
plot is not the first thing to think about, basic mechanics are. And I can't help you with python
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it's fine, I know how to do python (edited)
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Game development... is quite hard.
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Morgrim Moon 07/07/2019 4:41 AM
start by building a bunch of other, simpler python games. Like snake. Snake is a great start
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0111narwhalz 07/07/2019 4:52 AM
In Python, consider pygame. If it's a tile-based thing, libcurses and SDL are good libraries, but I don't know whether they have Python bindings.
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There are a bunch of Python roguelike tutorials around, though I forgot which libraries are used for that sort of thing. (edited)
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#random .
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0111narwhalz 07/09/2019 1:02 AM
#otherworlds » Angular momentum and gyroscopic forces in fourspace. (edited)
01:03
@Kerr
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MarcusAurelius 07/09/2019 1:03 AM
@0111narwhalz it was in #otherworlds (edited)
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0111narwhalz 07/09/2019 1:03 AM
whoops
01:04
I think gyroscopic torques are derived from the cross product of the input torque with the angular momentum.
01:04
However, the cross product of two vectors is undefined in fourspace; you need a third vector to properly define it.
01:05
Does that third vector come from the fact that rotation in fourspace is about a plane instead of an axis, or do you need another vector from… somewhere?
01:10
hmm actually that would make sense wouldn't it
01:10
I think that has knock-on effects for electromagnetism and all kinds of other stuff…
01:11
Man, treating W the same as XYZ really makes things complicated, doesn't it? :V
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#random probably.
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I think this is the right place for it; i've been thinking about something and joined the discord to see if it had merit
14:44
so i noticed that the interesting idea of low-mass extremely-high-velocity guns has had a bunch of holes poked it in, to the point that it's in the FAQ
14:44
i like the idea though, and I wanted to try and get better numbers and figure out a way to make it work
14:47
no luck with better numbers; if there's a publicly available way to simulate a miligram of cold iron plowing through air at various fractions of a C, I haven't found it. It's not normal aerodynamics, it's not hypersonics like one person pointed out, and it's not just a straight beam of iron ions because, if nothing else, the mass of the ions are actually very significant compared to the medium it's travelling through, so i doubt it'd behave much like a normal ion beam
14:47
(will continue in a few minutes)
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The problem is just simple air ablation, plus a bit of fluid physics.
14:50
Air simply doesn‘t have the time to move out of the way.
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Hm. For the first time I am wondering about using the electrolaser mechanism to assist with this.
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(back) i'm not sure it's really fluid physics though; at high fractions-
14:56
FUCK
14:56
that was my idea
14:56
rip, i wasn't quite as clever as i thought
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Hey, great minds think alike? 😃
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good point
14:57
yeah, i figure you probably don't have laser guns because of practical issues, like mirrored armor being useful at the sorts of power levels a handheld gun would operate at
14:57
kinetics are much harder to ignore
14:58
but ionizing the path a-la a electrolaser would get rid of most of that pesky air, and the biggest issue i see is that you'd probably be giving a few miliseconds extra warning, because you'd have to fire the projectile on a slight delay to give the air time to vacate
14:59
rest is probably just edge issues, like firing in really high winds or while turning the gun very quickly, etc. Plenty of good-enough solutions
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A "burner" system would work, arguably...
15:00
But it‘s just so goshdarn tricky.
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burner system?
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Setting nearby environments on fire
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relativistic projectiles don't do much better, though
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You need to burn a vacum tunnel, then move the burner out of the way and fire your projectile through the vacuum before it collapses.
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why not just have a solid state laser on the front of the gun, surrounding the teeny barrel?
15:01
a cylinder with a tiny hole cut out of the middle
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You mean a phased array?
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if there's the slightest bit of spread on the laser, it'll end up ionizing the center after a short distance, and you could also engineer that in purposefully
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...to be honest, might just as well use a laser straightaway?
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i'm honestly not sure what a extremely advanced laser looks like
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Like, the issue‘s basicaly impossible to solve.
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No problem. Put the laser at the back of the gun, behind the breech of the mass driver. You've got a clear shot from there through breech, barrel, and target; dropping in the flechette doesn't take significant time.
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i'm thinking in earth-tech terms, which is basically "take a standard laser pointer, make it smaller and more powerful as appropriate for the technology, and then drill a tiny hole in it and thread in the gun barrel. FInesse away the details until it works"
15:04
oh, through the barrel would work even better
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I‘d straight-up switch to handwavium soliton disolacement tech, but if you have fields that can force air appart at relativistic speeds, you can just use that as your prokectile.
15:04
Through the barrel would work worse.
15:04
It‘s actually a really good idea to mount the laser array around the muzzle.
15:05
That gives emission area, which for a phased array is synonymous with the focusing area of the laser.
15:05
The larger that is, the longer-ranges the sharp focus.
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i suppose it depends on the power density you can manage that that sort of scale; i haven't done detailed math, but a projectile moving at a velocities best measured in c would have to be really, really teeny weeny to "only" blast a chest-sized hole in whatever it hits
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Why worse?
15:05
Not like you're going to have too much trouble with focusing, given hand weapon engagement ranges.
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though, with such a heavily enhanced populace and weapons which are borderline instantaneous, "hand weapon range" could be "a few miles, depending on how much time i had to aim"
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You now have to feed the projectile from the side in... a really short amount of time,laser focus is constricted by barrel diameter, which‘ll be tiny given most is taken up by coil to get the projectile to those speeds in the first place, and due to the later effective burner ranges will be worse.
15:08
The bigger problem afterwards really is... well, if you already have a vacuum burner, why not switch straight to DEW laser?
15:08
You‘re already investing a big amount of laser energy to shove the air out of the way. (edited)
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:08 PM
use a laser to blast the air out of the way, shoot the relativistic pea down the vacuum channel?
15:09
Might work.
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no matter what, if it was cylindrical around the barrel, wouldn't it be ionizing a much larger area than just the barrel? Any focus issues with it at the back end of the barrel would just result in a larger ionization area farther downrange, which only becomes a issue if you can't pump in enough power to ionize that area
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Jumping to just hammering holes into the enemy armor through the KB.
15:09
And no, it wouldn‘t. Ionization only happens at the beam focus points.
15:09
Also, "pumping more energy" this isn‘t Tim Taylor tech.
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i feel like lasers are probably impractical against prepared opponents on these energy scales
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Are they?
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covering your space ship in mirrors is impractical because of the sheer energies involved, and if your opponent has closed that much, you've done something wrong
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A pulse laser train with 10 kJ digs fist-sized holes into 80 GPA carbon nanotubes.
15:10
In one shot. Over in milliseconds.
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how deep does it dig into a mirrored surface that is, say, 99.999% efficient?
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Deeper.
15:11
Mirrors have to absorb to re-emit.
15:11
The pulse laser simply overwhelms the material at focus point.
15:11
It‘s like a steady rain of hail versus one sudden microseconds wall of hail.
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Yeah. There are some ways to ameliorate it, but the best ways of laser shielding, so far as I can tell, involve metric skullduggery.
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that's my thinking too, but i'd expect those issues to be exacerbated by scale; bigger laser against proprotionately bigger target means that mirrors are proportionately less useful
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You pump so much energy so suddenly into a target via the pulse action that, at focus point, just nothing stands up to it.
15:12
The only defense is increasing the bond strength of your armor material.
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i don't know enough about the minutia of how mirrors work at the atomic level to figure it out in detail, so you might be right there
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Or bringing more armor.
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BRING ON THE TAUONIUM.
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:13 PM
If the armor superconducts heat, can that let it ablate away evenly instead of getting a big hole burned in it?
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it's something about individual photons inducing a opposing electromagnetic wave, which promptly flies way in the opposite direction as a new photon
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Jade Nekotenshi 07/15/2019 3:14 PM
wouldn't be great as body armor - you'd still cook - but...
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I‘d have used magmatter, but okay.
15:14
And superconductors... don‘t have enough time to conduct.
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not everyone wants to wear body armor that weights five million metric tons
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Pulse lasers can cut through cells and wood without trauma.
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it tends to be a bit cumbersome
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Shit, you can cut explosives with pulse lasers.
15:15
The energy application is so sudden and local that effects like conduction just... don‘t manifest.
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oh i know, lasers do not "cut" at high speeds
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The energy is there, has turned the target material into plasma and that plasma is ejected before sorounding material has time to notice something happened.
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you just get a explosion, as whatever element or compound it hits is promptly heated way past its vaporization temperature, straight into ionization
15:16
the only way to cut with a laser is to patiently wait for material to get out of the way
15:16
after a point, you're just exploding your target harder
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That‘s why you pulse your trains.
15:17
One shot is actually hundreds of nanosecond pulses... spread out over milliseconds.
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i suspect that things get ludicrous before you manage to get to the point of "cut a human in half in a second"
15:18
like what you see in some fiction
15:18
if you want the gases out of the way faster, you have to pump in more energy in less time
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The first 300 nanometer impulse only explosively vaporized part of the skin layer at Martinez’ neck into plasma. But it was followed by hundreds of more impulses, and so they drilled. Martinez’ neck exploded in a flash of harsh blue-white, flinging tissue, metal droplets, shattered nanoceramics and burning c-allotropes everywhere as cubic centimeters of matter were vaporized under photonic hammer blows.
15:18
Description of a pulse laser action, me.
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the problem i see is that no matter what, you have a lot of material there
15:19
cutting a hole is doable
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And it‘s much less "cut a human in half".
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Yeah. As you can probably tell, the main reason lasers aren't more prevalent at the present time is because of beam dispersal issues over typical engagement ranges, which reduces their effectiveness considerably in the starship-weapons arena. Makes 'em have to work by heating, not 'splodyness.
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It‘s more "drill a fist-sized hole through them".
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